There's been a lot of discussion recently on a couple of threads here about "freedom", and what it means.
So when this video happened to appear on my YouTube feed, I found it very interesting and, I admit, refreshing to hear.
I particularly thought the section beginning around 2:37 on the topic of how "freedom" is viewed in the US compared to elsewhere enlightening.
If I made some of the comments contained in this video, I'd be accused of racism. I probably still will be. However, since these are Americans sharing their views, I guess it will be seen as mere heresy, or perhaps blasphemy on their part.
Still, I think these Americans help give an idea of how other cultures view what is important in life. And maybe that might help explain the comments made by "foreigners" that frequent American posters in this forum find so hard to understand.
RE: Freedom
This is a boring hit piece made by snide privileged people who don't seem to have spent any time outside the West. A lot of talking with shitty stock video and very little information, and a waste of nine minutes of my time. I've seen a lot more of the world than they have and I hope you have too.
The expected response, that pretty much proves the point. Anyone who dares dispute the great myths is snide and privileged. Don't, for a second, consider responding to the many valid points they raised.
RE: Freedom
Why don't you try to prove whatever your point is with better material, rather than use stupid material to confirm your bias that Americans are stupid?
RE: Freedom
Or perhaps you need some help. Let's start with freedom -- the point raised by Lancellot's thread concerning my own country.
The point made by the video is how people view freedom -- some view it as the freedom to [insert some action here], while others see it as freedom from [insert consequence of choice]. In other words, it often boils down to individual rights vs the rights of society as a whole.
Examples (some of which were raised in the video):
I want the freedom to carry a gun anywhere I go.
I want the freedom to say whatever I like.
I want the freedom to refuse any action (e.g. mask wearing or travel restrictions during a pandemic) that I don't like.
I want the freedom to display the ten commandments on my school walls and to insist the day be started with prayers.
vs
I want freedom from the fear of being shot dead by some lunatic while out walking my dog.
I want freedom from the dangers of racial vilification, hate speech and violent, incendiary language.
I want freedom from the likelihood of a loved one being infected with a deadly virus by someone who considers a piece of cloth a violation of their personal rights.
I want freedom from having any religion or ideology imposed on me.
Or is there some other part of the video you rejected without rebuttal that you'd like to talk about?
RE: Freedom
You've been editing your comments after I responded to them. I'll humor you. But after this response I'm going back to the more useful and entertaining cabinet picks thread, and I hope you will too.
Also, let's leave Lancellot out of this while he is not here to defend himself. Yes, France is an "advanced" country. We're aware because French people never let us forget that they invented freedom enforced with the guillotine, they are in fact superior to Americans, and they brought us French fries and French onion soup. Ok in seriousness, thanks to France for supporting our independence from Great Britain with the guns they brought us. That is all I am going to say about guns.
-most Americans school kids no longer pledge allegiance to the flag in public schools as far as I know. It might have been true when these two grew up. That was at least a generation ago.
-water filtration: there are different microbes in different regions. The water could be better in your country and still make a foreigner sick if they are visiting for a week. Better to be safe than sorry if you don't know exactly where the water comes from. Yea France has multiple brands of excellent bottled water that they export (Nestle, Evian for example) but these folks are dumb to use that example because THAT water has gone through a very specific quality production process. There is no nuance to where their tap water came from. Was it well water? City water? What was the mineral content? The brand matters, as anyone traveling around in the third world knows.
Freedom OF vs freedom FROM: ok let's talk about that. It was the most potentially useful subject in the video.
The word Liberty is French (liberte) derived from Latin (libre). Libraries, reading, and liberty all derive from the same root. Freedom comes from knowledge. And here is the crux of it: suppression of language and information is more dangerous than any other form of suppression. It's our first amendment for a reason.
American libertarians are fond of the following paragraphed quote by Ben Franklin: "those who would trade a little liberty for security deserve neither". The quote is taken out of context, but it's consistent with ethos towards restrictions of American free speech.
Let's start with an example with which we might share some common ground: abortion. France has some limited freedom of speech but they have some particularly insidious examples that I consider unforgivable. If you can't talk about murder of innocents, is any other supposed freedom even worth having? Fuck French freedom. Yeah, I said it.
Re: "I want freedom from the likelihood of a loved one being infected with a deadly virus by someone who considers a piece of cloth a violation of their personal rights." You know, it's funny you mention that, especially since France is particularly notorious for their burqa ban in public spaces since 2011. I can appreciate the reasons for it, while also seeing the effect it might have on further inhibiting the independence of women from Islamic countries to go where they please while appeasing their male slavemasters at home. Would you like a mask ban in the US?
They talked a bunch about quality of life, peace of mind and well-being. And they keep talking about how Americans think they are the best. We just say that to Europeans to trigger them though, cause it's funny how they react. Anyway it's clear that the two of them aren't interesting in accomplishing world-changing things with their lives. They want a 30-hour work week. Well all power to them.
The population of France is about 20% the size of the US, with comparable incomes. When I googled the demographics, I got a Big Brother lecture from Google:
Apparently, for the last 150 years France has prohibited the collection of data on race, ethnicity, or beliefs through national censuses. Not collecting any information is a great way of pretending they have no problems, yet they have this burqa ban. Yeah, France sounds like such a free country!
Hmm, what else. Do you remember the Charlie Hebdo attack? It appears from their laws that you can go to prison for denying the Holocaust or any sort of discrimination against a dude who wants to pass as a woman. There was a major law passed in 2020banning kiddie porn and terrorism, but it also includes "hate speech" on the Internet. What that consists of exactly, I'm not sure. Hate speech according to who? Would that include any material that supported a particular political candidate? Perhaps you can enlighten me.
What concerns me particularly is that whoever is in control can decide what hate speech is. What if 6000-year earth creationists ran the bureau, and they banned content about evolution, or anything that criticized Christian or Islamic gods? How would you feel about that?
France is considered to be better than most countries when it comes to free speech, but I wonder who is keeping up with those rankings. I think Holocaust deniers should be allowed to run around and yell, so everyone can see how crazy they are. If they are just locked up, you'll never know who else might be locked up as well.
There are lots of things I like and respect about France but again, if you can't even criticize abortion there, they have no freedom worth having.
RE: Freedom
No, I began editing my comment shortly after I posted it. In your eagerness to respond you managed to beat me to the punch before I could hit send. Congratulations, you win.
Lancellot is free, as far as I'm concerned, to defend himself any time he likes. He generally doesn't when he's on shaky ground, which happens to be all the time. If there's some other reason he's not able to respond, I'm not aware of it.
I'm not interested in France for the purposes of this discussion, as there are no French people participating. The basic principles the two Americans were pointing out could be equally applied to many countries.
I never mentioned the pledge of allegiance to the flag in schools, so I don't know why you brought it up.
The water topic was the one I found least remarkable. Some inferences about knowledge of foreign countries in general could be drawn, and there would be plenty of other examples. I've had Americans remark to me that they've been astonished how little they know or have been taught about the history, politics, economics or people of other countries, compared to how much people from other countries know about the US. I can see that is another endless rabbit hole, so I'm not going to draw any conclusions from that.
I'd argue the freedom to live life unthreatened, unvilified, in safety and peace is more important than the freedom to be an obnoxious dick spewing hate speech and inciting violence any day of the week.
As for Americans constantly needing to claim they are the best, the smartest, the bravest, the most powerful being just a taunt to rile the French, clearly you're joking. You can't see a speech by any politician or public figure (on all sides of the political spectrum) in which this fantasy isn't drummed home repeatedly. The fact people will be baying for your blood if you dare to suggest it's a myth is proof of how well the "brainwashing", as they call it, works. Ask anyone who isn't an American if it's a "thing".
"Anyway it's clear that the two of them aren't interesting in accomplishing world-changing things with their lives. They want a 30-hour work week. Well all power to them."
Awww, cute. Your protestant work ethic is showing through. Tell me, if you could have a great life working 30 hours a week, would you want to work 40? If so, I suggest you check yourself into a clinic pronto. I wonder what happened to "work smarter, not harder"? Furthermore, how can you possibly have any knowledge of what they are, or are not, doing with their lives, based on a 9 minute video? Would it surprise you if I told you they were volunteers for Médecins Sans Frontières - Doctors Without Borders?
Once again, I'm not interesting in your attacks on France or the French, or defending them. But it's fascinating how quickly you go on the attack because these two Americans have the temerity to prefer the new life they've made there, and say some things you might find to be hard medicine. Completely typical.
RE: Freedom
Well you wanted a response to the material in the video itself, I thought. Since you keep saying "Typical", let's point out that it's typical of you to ignore any of the issues I brought up about "freedom" (though I focused instead on the word "liberty") or the quote specifically about it to focus on comfort. Comfort is possible with security. A lot of Americans would maintain that their less comfortable circumstances are worth it if they have better access to reality. Now, that might be a false choice in many cases. Lots of people only read news from one source, and don't use their ability to actually access or leverage freedom of information. That is a tragedy. And yes I will agree with you that other countries know more about us than we about them. This is often largely out of necessity for them, as the world financial system mostly orbits around or in synch with the US and business is conducted in English because of the history of the British empire. Not saying we are the BEST, but that we are the BIGGEST. And there are a lot of countries out there with relatively few people, such as yours. We can't constantly follow them all.
I got no issue with anyone preferring their new life in France. I do have a problem with them choosing not to be aware of which liberties they have lost, while mocking those who have them. Freedom of information is more important than comfort because it enables one to know about the relative comfort and security of others, including those who have none.
RE: Freedom
EXPRESS YOURSELF
Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!
The right to be numb and dumb.
Oh, let me be
The scum you see!
If you're not pleased, ho-hum!
You are all FREEly invited to the divorce ceremony--in about six months, somewhere in southern France--of that happy couple in the video.
She will be swept off by a ravishing, dark 22-year-old Don Juan from Aragon, homeless in Marseilles.
And he will not be able to get enough of a tall, blond 18-year-old Adonis of a student named Guy Pierre.
RE: Freedom
For the record library and liberty do not come from the same root.
Yes, liber (short i) means book in Latin.
And liber (long i) means free.
But other forms of liber meaning book have the stem libr- while liber meaning free has the stem liber- indicating that they are in fact quite different words despite appearing to be the same.
Confusing, isn't it. You can thank me later. I always knew my seven freaking years of studying Latin would come in useful one day.
Furthermore, Latin has a perfectly good word for knowledge. It is scientia and guess what that's the root of.
To quote Alexander Pope:
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring!
